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UPenn coach ‘obsessed with winning’ has backed trans swimmer Lia Thomas

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The UPenn coach who is supporting transgender swimmer Lia Thomas boasted about changing the ‘losing’ culture at the Ivy League school in a 2016 interview and has been obsessed with making a winning team for nearly 40 years. 

Head swim coach Mike Schnur has been described as one of Thomas’, 22, biggest supporters, but other UPenn swimmers claim he has ignored their frustration at the trans swimmer’s spot on the women’s team because he ‘just really likes winning.’

In a 2016 interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian, Schnur, 55, bragged about wanting to change the Ivy League swim team’s ‘culture of extreme losing’ when he first joined the team as a student in the 1980s. He’s been pushing the team to win ever since. 

Schnur was recruited to the team in 1982 when he was a junior in high school. He joined the team under Kathy Lawlor-Gilbert, from whom he eventually took over the position of head coach in 2000. 

‘When I came here, Penn had just gone through a period where we had lost 10 years in a row. And I don’t mean lost a meet or two, I mean lost every single meet for about 10 years,’ Schnur told The Daily Pennsylvanian.

‘My class was the first real class that Coach Gilbert brought into Penn,’ he explained. ‘We came into a culture of extreme losing, and my class changed that very quickly.’ 

DailyMail.com reached out to Schnur, the UPenn Sports Association and Thomas for comment. 

Mike Schnur

Lia Thomas

Head UPenn swim coach Mike Schnur (left) has been described as one of Lia Thomas’ (right) ‘biggest supporters and allies in this process since day one.’ Schnur swam for the team in the 80s before joining the coaching staff and has bragged about changing the ‘culture of extreme losing’

This weekend, Lia Thomas won three events and set three new school records including two new Ivy League records. But Thomas' place on the women's swim team has some teammates frustrated with Shnur for giving a woman's spot to Thomas because 'he just really likes winning'  (Pictured: Lia Thomas setting the record at the 500 yard freestyle on December 3)

This weekend, Lia Thomas won three events and set three new school records including two new Ivy League records. But Thomas’ place on the women’s swim team has some teammates frustrated with Shnur for giving a woman’s spot to Thomas because ‘he just really likes winning’  (Pictured: Lia Thomas setting the record at the 500 yard freestyle on December 3)

Thomas' success has sparked outrage amid controversy over transgender athletes competing in sports alongside others opposite of the gender they were assigned at birth, with many claiming a 'man' broke her recent women's records. Pictured: Lia in 2020

Thomas’ success has sparked outrage amid controversy over transgender athletes competing in sports alongside others opposite of the gender they were assigned at birth, with many claiming a ‘man’ broke her recent women’s records. Pictured: Lia in 2020

How Lia Thomas’ times stack up against her bests as a male swimmer at UPenn and NCAA records

Will 

200m free

1:39:31 

500m free

4:18:72 

1650m free

14:54:76 

Lia

200m free

1:41:93 

500m free

4:34:06 

1650m free

15:59:71 

NCAA

200m free

1:39:10 

500m free

4:24:06 

1650m free

15:03:31 

The current NCAA women’s records for those events are currently held by Olympic gold medalists. Missy Franklin holds the record for the 200 Free at 1:39:10. Katie Ledecky set the records for the 500 Free at 4:24:06 and the 1,650 Free at 15:03:31.  

Thomas said her pre-transition times are not an accurate gage for her ‘current ability’ but admitted that she did not train as often or as hard in her year off as she did when competing on the men’s team. 

As a senior, Schnur served as co-captain of the team from 1987-88 and led his team to on to their first winning season in 12 years and their second most-successful dual meet record in the 100-year-plus history of the program. He also broke school records for the 1000-yard and 1650 freestyle swim. 

After graduating he became the swimming team’s assistant coach under Lawlor-Gilbert in 1993 and then went on to take over as head coach, where he has served for over two decades. 

All coaches aim to win but Schnur’s nearly 40 year obsession with making UPenn a winning team may have gone too far. 

An anonymous female swimmer at UPenn told sports website OutKick on Thursday that she and most of her female teammates are upset because Schnur is allowing a transgender athlete to take a woman’s spot because he ‘just really likes winning.’

The unidentified female swimmer revealed her resentment as her transgender teammate continues to smash records saying ‘everyone just knows it’s the wrong thing.’

This revelation comes the same day as Thomas gave an interview to SwimSwam, which covers college and Olympic swimming news, specifically noting Schnur’s support of her transition and switch to the woman’s team.

Thomas, a senior, previously competed on the school’s men’s swim team for three years before her transition. She was born a biological male named Will. Thomas’s last known men’s event was November 16, 2019. 

‘Mike has been one of my biggest supporters and allies in this process since day one and I’m very grateful to have that support from him and from everybody on the team. I feel very supported. Just treated like any other member of the women’s team,’ Thomas said. 

But the unidentified female swimmer told OutKick that support from the female swimmers is ‘fake.’ 

‘When the whole team is together, we have to be like, “Oh my gosh, go Lia, that’s great, you’re amazing.“ It’s very fake,’ she said.

‘The Ivy League is not a fast league for swimming, so that’s why it’s particularly ridiculous that we could potentially have an NCAA champion. That’s unheard of coming from the Ivy League,’ the swimmer explained.

‘On paper, if Lia Thomas gets back down to Will Thomas’ best times, those numbers are female world records. Faster than all the times [Olympic swimmer] Katie Ledecky went in college. Faster than any other Olympian you can think of. His times in three events are [female] world records.’

According to OutKick, in the three years Thomas competed on the men’s team at UPenn Will recorded his best times in the 200 Free at 1:39:31, his 500 Free at 4:18:72, and his 1,650 at 14:54:76.

The current NCAA women’s records for those events are currently held by Olympic gold medalists. Missy Franklin holds the record for the 200 Free at 1:39:10. Katie Ledecky set the records for the 500 Free at 4:24:06 and the 1,650 Free at 15:03:31.

Since competing on the women’s team this season, Thomas has swam the 200 Free at 1:41:93, the 500 Free at 4:34:06, and 1,650 Free at 15:59:71. 

The UPenn swim team recently posted about one of Thomas' record breaking swims in the 500m freestyle race (pictured)

The UPenn swim team recently posted about one of Thomas’ record breaking swims in the 500m freestyle race (pictured)

Thomas (pictured in 2016) was a star swimmer in high school

Thomas (pictured in 2017) was a star swimmer in high school

Thomas (pictured in 2016 and 2017, respectively) was a star swimmer at Westlake High School in Austin, Texas 

What do the NCAA rules say? 

According to the NCAA Policy on Transgender Student-Athlete Participation, a trans female must have undergone at least one year of testosterone suppression treatment before being eligible to compete on a women’s team.

The rules state: ‘A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment.’

The guidelines also make clear that: ‘A trans female (MTF) transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender transition may not compete on a women’s team.’

In addition, if a sports team has been classified as a mixed team as a result of the inclusion of a trans woman who has undergone none or less than one year of testosterone suppression treatment, this classification remains in place for the remainder of the academic year ‘without exception’.

Thomas made national headlines this week as the center of the ongoing debate surrounding regulations for transgender athletes after breaking records at the Zippy Invitational Event last weekend – beating her teammate Anna Sofia Kalandaze out of first place by 38 seconds at the swim meet.

Over the weekend, Thomas shattered national records at the collegiate swim meet in Akron, Ohio. 

Thomas’ winning time for the 1,650-meter freestyle race was 15:59:71, less than a minute off Ledecky’s world-record pace.

Video from the Zippy Invitational meet shows Thomas starting out a full torso length ahead of her closest competitor, and extending the lead to nearly a full lap.

She consistently finished the laps at quicker speeds than her opponents, and when she won, the scoreboard flashed her record-setting time to complete the race.

Thomas’ win was a record for the Zippy Invitational, and also at the pool where the event took place.

The winning result also meets the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) standard required to qualify, which means Thomas will be automatically entered to compete in the national championship meet in Atlanta in March 2022. 

Only five swimmers broke 16 minutes at last season’s NCAA championships.

It was the third record Thomas was able to set at the Zippy meet over the weekend, which led to criticism on social media. 

Thomas’ participation in the sport is the latest controversy in the ongoing argument over whether trans people should be allowed to compete alongside athletes of their chosen gender, with particular debate over whether it’s fair for trans female athletes to compete against cis female rivals. 

The NCAA rules state: ‘A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment.’

The guidelines also make clear that: ‘A trans female (MTF) transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender transition may not compete on a women’s team.’

In addition, if a sports team has been classified as a mixed team as a result of the inclusion of a trans woman who has undergone none or less than one year of testosterone suppression treatment, this classification remains in place for the remainder of the academic year ‘without exception.’

Earlier this year, Olympic officials also announced that rules for allowing transgender athletes to participate in women’s competitions will be changed.

Officials say the current guidelines, set in 2015, are not fit for purpose and should be adapted to catch-up with advancements in science and testing.

A push towards each individual sport setting their own rules is one of the likely outcomes – in a bid to move away from the current ‘one-size-fits-all’ approach.

And according to The Guardian, the new guidelines will suggest that trans women should no longer be required to reduce their testosterone levels to compete.

Transgender athletes who have sparked controversy competing in women’s sports

Telfer's manager, David McFarland, said Telfer would respect the decision

Transgender runner CeCe Telfer

Trans women have sparked a firestorm of debate about their participation in women’s sports. 

In June, transgender hurdler CeCe Telfer was barred from competing in the US Olympic trials after she failed to prove she could meet the testosterone requirements at the time.

The 5 nmol/L testosterone level, considered to be the highest a female-born woman would naturally have, was set by World Athletics in 2019 for members who want to join the US Olympic team to compete in women’s races of distances between 400 meters and one mile. 

Chelsea Wolfe

Chelsea Wolfe

Another American athlete, BMX rider Chelsea Wolfe, travelled to the Tokyo Olympic Games as an alternative.

She became the first transgender Olympian on Team USA. She did not compete in the Olympics. 

Transgender weightlifter Laurel Hubbard announced in August that she was retiring in the wake of her controversial appearance this summer at the Tokyo Olympics, where she failed to complete a single lift.

The 43-year-old, who transitioned in 2012, competed in the women’s 87kg+ category for New Zealand but crashed out after making history as the first trans woman to compete in a solo event. But she failed to record a single valid snatch lift in Tokyo. 

Transgender weightlifter Laurel Hubbard

Transgender weightlifter Laurel Hubbard 

People have recently taken to social media to express their outrage.

‘This should outrage every person who’s ever advocated for women in athletics,’ Jessica Cole wrote.

‘A disgrace for all the hard working female swimmers,’ Claude Gregory added.

Sport performance coach Linda Blade responded to Thomas’ most recent event by saying: ‘Well of course women’s records are being smashed! 

‘Lia competed as male for first three years in #NCAA. This is not right!

‘We need to return to #SexBasedSports! #SexNotGender to preserve fairness for female athletes.’

One person said: ‘How many people were involved in this swim meet and not one of them stood up and said this is wrong?’

While a third wrote: ‘How can anybody look at that and say that it is fair for Lia Thomas to swim against women?’

Another user was outraged that his daughters, who swim competitively, have ‘worked their a**es off’ to get where they are for Thomas to dominate the sport.

‘My two daughters swim competitively. They practice 3-4 times a week almost year round. 

‘My girls and many others work their a** off for years and even decades. This kind of shit angers me to no end. This is not progress.’

Thomas’ record breaking times helped UPenn place second overall in the competition but still did not sit well with all of her teammates.  

‘There are a bunch of comments on the Internet about how, “Oh, these girls are just letting this happen. They should just boycott or protest.“ 

‘At the end of the day, it’s an individual sport. If we protest it, we’re only hurting ourselves because we’re going to miss out on all that we’ve been working for,’ the unidentified teammate told OutKick.

‘When I have kids, I kinda hope they’re all boys because if I have any girls that want to play sports in college, good luck. 

‘[Their opponents] are all going to be biological men saying that they’re women,’ Thomas’ teammate said.

‘Right now we have one, but what if we had three on the team? There’d be three less girls competing.’

Former Olympic gold medal winner Caitlyn Jenner waded into the controversy, back in May this year, saying she opposes trans women competing in female sports.

Jenner, who was one of the US’s most successful athletes in the decathlon during the 1970s and won gold in the Montreal Olympics in 1976, announced that she was a trans woman back in 2015.

When asked about her thoughts on trans women competing in sports with other women, Jenner said: ‘This is a question of fairness. That’s why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls’ sports in school. It just isn’t fair. And we have to protect girls’ sports in our schools.’ 

And only a third of Americans believe trans athletes should be allowed to compete on teams that don’t match the sex they were assigned at birth, a poll found earlier this year.

Gallup’s annual Values and Beliefs survey — conducted May 3 – 18 by telephone interviews with 1,016 randomly selected adults living in the US — showed that 62 percent said transgender athletes should only be allowed to play on sports teams that correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth.

Only 34 percent said they should be allowed to play on teams that match their gender identity.

Gallup researchers explained that the issue of sports policies pertaining to transgender athletes is ‘fairly new to many Americans, and that their opinions on LGBT issues have changed over time, often in big ways.’

‘Sizable majorities of Americans have expressed consistent support for transgender military service in recent years, whereas this first measure on sports policies suggests that they are not viewing the two issues the same.’

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